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From: Sourcerer
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Dystopia, at last...
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 15:03:28 -0400
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References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
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In-Reply-To: <[email protected]>

On 11 Sep 1995, Omar Haneef '96 wrote:

> Sourcerer ([email protected]) wrote:
> > On 11 Sep 1995, Omar Haneef '96 wrote:
> > > Sourcerer ([email protected]) wrote:
> > > > In article <[email protected]>,
> > > > [email protected] (Omar Haneef '96) wrote:

> So the activist in communication with the lumpen IS capable of "real" change
> that the lumpen would want?

I would very much like you to stop viewing activists as alien visitors
descending on primitive subhumans and changing them for the better.

People often find themselves in a condition of "no way out". That's true
of the educated, intelligent and well off, although they have easier
access to resources to break through the "encirclement". I tried to
illustrate that with my example of the woman in the motel room -- the
uneducated, unsophisticated and poor could use an assist from those who
have the wherewithall to provide it.

My question, though, is is "real" change that which the activist would want?



> You sound increasingly like a Marxist. This is exactly the
> traditional marxist line (even though I don't know why, I suspect this will
> make you angry).

It confuses me. I am not familiar with Marx's prescriptions for the
lumpenproletariat. I didn't know there were any.

> Can someone who is not one of the lumpen, is not a
> politician and is not religious make any difference to the miserable state
> of the lumpen in your opinion? (I suppose miserable state is provacative but
> you have already agreed, in a previous post, that they - you? - are unhappy.)

"Make any difference"? None of this is clear to me. Again the issue for
the social power and activists isn't "empowering" the lumpen, the issue is
how to "hobble" them (comfortably) so they don't act out.

> AFAIK? As Far As Is Known?

...I Know

> I didn't want to take sides but since you (kindly) responded to my insertion
> into your debate I ended up picking up the convo with you.

> Technical Boy's stance may be pretentious but it is historically grounded.
> Up until the Frankfurt School came on the scene, Marxists believed that what
> the people wanted was what was best.

This is more alien visitor stuff. What the people want is what they
want. Marxists, deluded by the belief that they could deliver social
systems like pizzas, may have concluded once upon a time that the pizza
people wanted was the best pizza.

> The Frankfurt School thought this was
> problematic since it was exactly the proletariat (lumpen?) who empowered
> Hitler in Nazi Germany.

Then the Frankfurt School hasn't studied the era sufficiently.

> The masses empowered the Nazi party.

I'll give you the opportunity to withdraw that ludicrous assertion.


(__) Sourcerer
/(<>)\ O|O|O|O||O||O "RL is a story told in cyberspace"
\../ |OO|||O|||O|O -- Sweet Poly
|| OO|||OO||O||O


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